Transform Your Marriage by Facing Trauma Hand in Hand – II

Guest (Male): The following program is sponsored by Focus on the Family, and is made possible by the heartfelt support of listeners like you.
John Fuller: This is John Fuller, and please remember to let us know how you're listening to these programs on a podcast, app, or website.
Dr. Dan Allender: The spirit of God is always exposing and inviting us to change. And our relationship is meant to transform us to become more like Jesus. I think that actually is the central reason for why God brought us into a relationship where there will be such clear beauty and brokenness, exposure, heartache, and yet joy. It really is the interplay of death and resurrection. And there is going to be nothing, no relationship quite as difficult, but also as beautiful as a marriage.
John Fuller: Dr. Dan Allender joins us again today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and I'm John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, I so appreciated the conversation that we had last time with Dan. Man, it was eye-popping, and I love that. We always enjoy when Dan's here. He has learned so much about the human heart and the theology that God is illuminating for us to say, okay, this is how you are, this is where you need to go. And if you missed the discussion last time, get the app, get the download, go to the website, you can get it there. I think it's good for every believer and every non-believer to listen to that conversation we had last time. We did a lot of exposing of the human heart, and mostly through our own stories. Dan brought some great stories of he and his wife, Becky. But today, we want to talk about how to begin the road of healing and being more aware and doing things with intentionality to get us closer to God's heart and hopefully further away from those fleshly attitudes that we possess.
John Fuller: Yeah, there's a deep discipleship component here as we talk about Dan's book, The Deeply Rooted Marriage, cultivating intimacy, healing, and delight. Dan, welcome back to Focus on the Family.
Dr. Dan Allender: Jim, John, so good to be with you both.
Jim Daly: I just so enjoy it. I mean, you you have lived a life of, you know, pain and progress. It might be a good way to say it, and I so appreciate the way that you've been very diligent about learning these things. I mean, you've spent your life doing that, getting a PhD. We kicked it off last time just talking about that juncture of psychology and theology. You obviously flow very well between the two. You don't have a a hang up or a distinction. I always like mentioning that because, you know, many of us Christians struggle with that idea. But you think of the great scientists, Louis Pasteur and others who base their scientific rigor on the fact that it's created therefore we could know it. And they had a full faith in God. Yeah, you seem to strike me as that same kind of scientist.
Dr. Dan Allender: Well, I can't imagine attempting to understand patterns where there's the implication of an author without there being an author.
Jim Daly: Right.
Dr. Dan Allender: So, patterns themselves imply a certain kind of shall we say, invitation to explore what the author intended. And in that, we begin to get a better sense of what the creator is, who he is, and what he wishes out of us.
Jim Daly: Yeah. You know what's interesting for us, again, as Christians, we can think of that application to the universe. Let's measure things and, you know, the quasars. And I love that. It's a kind of a hobby of mine. But at the same time, we struggle then thinking of the way the mind functions. And the two are both created, the very universe we're in and the mind that God's given us.
Dr. Dan Allender: Well, and we can say creation itself groans with the desire for restoration, but it didn't sin. But we groan, but we also have to address a greater complexity that's actually in us than what's in the world around us.
Jim Daly: Well, that set it up perfectly to say then we get married. That is beautiful. But marriage often develops those patterns that can be both healthy and unhealthy. And I think we can dilute ourselves when we're alone. When we get married, we have another person that can objectively view our behavior and challenge us.
Dr. Dan Allender: Well, the fact is that they don't actually function objectively. But they're interacting with us in a way in which their perception is going to collide with ours. And in that, there really is something truly objective, meaning the call of becoming more like Jesus. And yet now, I have all sorts of ways to justify why it's hard because of you that I'm not growing. Now, what a brilliant move. I know I'm not growing, but it's because of you. And when I then utilize that's kind of self-justification, nothing is more apt in our own being. And nothing more in psychology is better researched than our own capacity for self-deception.
Jim Daly: Wow, I mean, that is it. It's interesting how it reinforces scriptural truth about humanity. I mean, they're not they're not saying things that are different. They're actually affirming what God has said in the scripture 2,000 years ago.
Dr. Dan Allender: And that painful.
Jim Daly: Yeah. Yeah, it's so true. Let me ask you, you had a a good opening story too about you and Becky and your issues in your marriage. But you had a story about her bringing her laptop to you. So, what is this?
Dr. Dan Allender: Oh, I don't want to go there. But yeah. Oh, look, this is the interplay of I don't like being distracted when I 'm writing. And I write all over the house. I don't have just an office. I work for a half hour in one seat and move to another and I'm sort of peripatetic in my writing.
Jim Daly: Becky must love that.
Dr. Dan Allender: No.
Jim Daly: Just assuming.
Dr. Dan Allender: She wants me in my office so she knows when I'm available or not. But when she brought the computer, and I'll say I'm much better at the computer than her. Uh, I'm four times better.
Jim Daly: But you need to make an appointment, it sounds like.
Dr. Dan Allender: Well, that would be helpful. But let's just say I'm four times better, which means I I would give myself a 40 out of 100.
Jim Daly: Okay. So, it means I she's asking me to engage something that I know that I'm not competent in. So, already I feel vulnerable. But even more than that, an implicit vow we made to one another was this. My mother was incredibly fragile and very needy. And anytime I'm in the presence, particularly in an intimate relationship with somebody who needs me at that level, something in me pushes back. Like you're not going to use me like my mother did. So, Becky's come she wouldn't come to me because of her own background unless she were fairly desperate. So, now her desperation meets my invulnerability. It isn't just she's interrupting my busy schedule. She's asking me to engage a level of her own need in a way that triggers me. So, she's triggered, I'm triggered. And at that point, I just sort of said, up, can't you see I'm working? And she's like, you're on the couch. I'm like, well, I'm still writing. And she's like, then you should have a flag you put up to indicate now now we're being ridiculous. And I'm like, that's silly. She's like, can you just step back and know I'm feeling desperate and you never seem to handle my desperation well. It changed everything in that one moment. Just that one sentence. I'm going to say it got sweet and good and lovely, but it came to that moment of we know one another's stories well enough that now I'm looking face to face that I'm replicating some of the deep harm she suffered in her family of origin.
Dr. Dan Allender: Yeah. And there's something that is so distasteful, heartbreaking about that. I was able to just step back and just say, can you give me 10 minutes? Not to finish writing, 10 minutes to just kind of get my mind and heart oriented to dealing with what you just said. 10 minutes. I had to get outside, I had to walk, had to talk to Jesus, had to listen to what he had to say to me. And after about 10 or 15 minutes, I was able to come back in and it still was miserable because I didn't know what to do. But we sort of stumbled together with a minor solution. But more importantly, there was some connection we were able to make even though there had been fragmentation, there had been division. But we are able to sort of move through what could have been traumatic, not huge, but traumatic to being able to have a bridge together.
Jim Daly: Yeah. Dan, I'm caught back there when you said that, you know, when you're growing up as a boy, your mom triggering you in that way or needing you, desperately needing you. It 's not as if the average person will connect those dots. I mean, you're trained, you've studied this, you've looked at yourself, you've reflected to be in that moment and say, oh my goodness, this is like my mother leaning on me emotionally is a different level of awareness. How how do we get there when we haven't done the PhD? How do we start to challenge the why? Why am I feeling this way?
Dr. Dan Allender: It's a brilliant question, but I I honestly have to say the PhD had nothing to do with it. The fact is Becky named even early in our relationship like you're a different man when you're in the presence of your mother than you are with me.
Jim Daly: Uh.
Dr. Dan Allender: I was so offended when she spoke that, but I knew something in my heart that it was true.
Jim Daly: What did it mean to you to hear that?
Dr. Dan Allender: Well, it meant I was in in one sense too faced. Uh, it meant that at some level I'm living with a level of loyalty to my mother that has not shifted and changed to my loyalty to my wife. I 'm trying to keep both loyalty simultaneously. Well, that's highly problematic and why God is so brilliant to bring us to that point in Genesis 2:24, leave your mother and father. This is not physical, it's not financial. It's loyalty at the deepest level of your heart. Now, that doesn't mean dishonor your mother and father, but it certainly means you must make this orientation shift. And for me, and for many people, you're trying to keep both loyalties simultaneously, which means you're failing at both.
Jim Daly: No, it's so true. And again, just that awareness to know what's transpiring in the moment. That's the thing. You don't need a PhD to be aware. You just need to be aware. And that I think that's the idea.
Dr. Dan Allender: Well, I think you also need a spouse who's open to engaging it.
Jim Daly: Becky sounds amazing. The story last time about getting in between you and your son on the ski slope. I could have used a couple of those sessions with the boys. Get up and get down.
Dr. Dan Allender: I I prepared her for a marvelous eternity.
Jim Daly: You gave her lots of fodder, I guess they say. One of the things, you know, we've mentioned Hope Restored last time, that intensive that we do. One of the core things the counselors at Hope Restored are driving toward is feeling safe in the marriage. Safety for them in the counseling environment, it's like one of the core things that has to exist to have a thriving marriage. You know, if you're again, if you're not aware of those things, how do we take away from a sense of safety within our marriage? What are those things that we do, maybe even unconsciously, that erode a sense of safety for our spouse? What does that look like? What are the names of it? And then how do we begin to make sure that we're building in safety for our spouses so that they do feel this is a a good place.
Dr. Dan Allender: Well, I think the number one we put words to before, and that's contempt, where you feel the judgment of the other, a kind of criticalness, a sense of you you go this direction, I'm going to make you pay in some level. I think another side to that is where we withdraw, where we're not safe enough to have this conversation. So, I created distance. And it really creates a DMC, a demilitarized zone where no human being's allowed to walk. Well, that ground becomes seeded ultimately by evil. And it will create not just dissension and division, but in one sense one form of divorce. What you avoid will eventually own you. So, you have to be willing to step into these hard topics, but it will need time. So, part of safety is not trying to resolve anything fast with a commitment to say when we talk about sex, it doesn't go well. When we talk about money, it does not go well. What's the dance where it doesn't go well? Can we own that dance as to how we tend to get into division? If we can own the dance, now we can disrupt it. But in the disruption, you're going to need to tend to the parts of you that feel triggered, that feel vulnerable, that feel hurt, misunderstood. And this is where can you begin the process not of trying to resolve that, but attend to it and let Jesus actually literally become part of that healing process. Central to a good marriage is Jesus's presence.
John Fuller: Well, we're privileged to have Dr. Dan Allender with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And he's bringing so much truth and heart to the topic of marriage and how you can get deeper in your marriage. In fact, his book is The Deeply Rooted Marriage, Cultivating Intimacy, Healing, and Delight. Get a copy of it from us here. You'll find it at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim Daly: Dan, conflict is inevitable, I think, but it it doesn't have to be a bad thing per se. I'm I'm kind of into conflict. I don't mean that negatively, but you know, conflict there was that old movie, Jerry Maguire or whatever it was, you know, the agent and the sports figure. And then they finally had their first fight, and the sports figure was going, now we're talking, you know, in the middle of their fight. And sometimes you feel that way that, you know, now we're finally getting somewhere. Let's hit it head on. Speak to healthy conflict. And some people will get in touch with us to say we're Christians, we don't have conflict. That 's a measure of our maturity in Christ. Uh, that may be true. I I don't know, but most married couples are going to experience conflict at some level.
Dr. Dan Allender: If you don't have conflict, it's an indication that you're dead. So,
Jim Daly: Or or you're just not engaged.
Dr. Dan Allender: Which is deadness. That you know, you're nice. You're nice to one another. Do you think anyone changes without a kind of disruption? I mean, you got to walk through the valley of the shadow of death to indeed one day sit at the table of the banquet looking at your enemies. So, marriage is meant to reveal something about Jesus. Well, what do we know about Jesus? His death, his resurrection, and his ascension. So, if your marriage doesn't know moments of death, then you don't have something to reveal about the story of God. Now, if you also don't know moments of rescue and resurrection, then you don't know Jesus in the way that you're meant to. So, let let's go back to that question of conflict. Conflict's not just inevitable, it's good because it's going to help you begin to look at things you probably would not have actually thought about until you were in it in the moment of that intense or somewhat intense interaction. The question is, will you be open to understanding something of what is driving, impassioning the views you hold? Like the research indicates that 70% Now, this is terrifying. 70% of the conflicts we have have no legitimate right or wrong answer. If we were to give up the notion of we're right and they're wrong, and then to be able to go, it's just different perspectives. But I need to understand that perspective in order to be able literally not only to critique it, but also to grow through it. So, a lot of conversations I have with Becky end up being and again, it said maybe a little contemptuous. How did you how did you come to think this? Like what? Well, it opens up us to a level of we know one another in a way we didn't. 48 years of marriage, I still have an almost infinite amount of knowing her to grow through. So, if you think you know your spouse already, that's a level of arrogance that I'd love for you to in one sense repent of. You know, but you have so much more to know. And conflict gives us ground to be in that playground together.
Jim Daly: Uh, you once asked Becky, is there anything she wanted to do together? This is a dangerous question.
Dr. Dan Allender: It is.
Jim Daly: And and she decided weeding would be the thing to do. And God bless you for being that person. Thankfully, Jean has not asked me to weed, but uh I'll lay this out there. Jean never asked me to Okay, so you got roped into weeding. What happened?
Dr. Dan Allender: It didn't go well uh because I started plucking flowers.
Jim Daly: That's my problem too.
Dr. Dan Allender: Yeah, and I I'm not malicious. I I was a mistake, and she corrected me. And I went back to doing weeds, but I got a few more flowers. She got a little bit upset, and it got a little louder, and I went back to work. And then I made another mistake. And at that point, she's like, why don't you Well, it it got to be something akin to the word brawl. Well, we were at it for four or five minutes, somewhat loud uh in our front lawn. And all of a sudden, we started hearing people clap. And I look over, and we have neighbors sitting on their porch. Apparently, there were two together, I mean, two couples together, and they invited a third to come over and watch this interaction.
Jim Daly: It's a spectacle.
Dr. Dan Allender: Yeah, it's a spectacle. And and literally at that point of clapping because I had at one point said to her, I know I'm wrong. I know I'm wrong. I'm sorry. I just can't do this. That's when they started clapping. And they over, and like we can went over, and they had snacks, and they had literally it was like a you know, an event. And one of the women said, how did you get him to apologize? Well, you know what's underneath that. And Becky started to say, well, he can be very difficult as you know. But on the other hand, there is a humility. And all of a sudden, one of the wives looked at me and said, how did you become humble? And I saw the look in one of the men's faces.
Jim Daly: Yes.
Dr. Dan Allender: It was a look like, don't you dare throw us under the bus. Make a make a joke and get on with this. And I'm like, you don't know me, buddy. That's not my way of being. And I just said, well, to be honest,
Jim Daly: Make a joke about it.
Dr. Dan Allender: that humility is not a natural trait. But there's something about my wife and her invitation, but also my relationship with Jesus has opened the door for me to in one sense face certain things in my own life that I probably wouldn't have.
Jim Daly: Wow.
Dr. Dan Allender: It began a discussion. It was really one of those first entries for us with our neighbors as to who are we? What matters to us? And what does it mean you're a Christian? What does it mean that you follow Jesus? Because it sure looks like you're a mess. We would have thought Christians would have had their lives totally together, and it's pretty clear, pal, you don't. Yet, the interplay of being able to name and face truth while simultaneously longing for our hearts to be different, it's a very compelling message to an unbelieving world.
Jim Daly: Yeah.
Dr. Dan Allender: It's so so true. Um, in the book, you talk about your 25th anniversary. I I love the story, and I want to make sure that we got to this because you asked your kids to do something special. This is brilliant. What did you have them do?
Jim Daly: Well, I I don't like the gifts they give me. I've had enough ties given to me over a lifetime.
Dr. Dan Allender: And cologne. Yeah. So, what I said to them was if you want to do something for us our our 25th, we're going to go out to dinner as a family, and I'm going to ask you to write a letter. Here's the question. What have you learned about marriage, about life, about Jesus? What have you learned about life from watching our marriage over these years? And we went to a very nice restaurant, and at one point they began reading the letters. Well, we I mean, it was some of the sweetest I mean, they were our children are honest. They're very they've named my anger, they've named at times Becky's withdrawal that. So, there's not just fluffy niceness.
Jim Daly: Yeah.
Dr. Dan Allender: There was depth of thought and engagement. But we were all crying. And the waiter came up at one point and goes, is everything okay? And we're like, yeah, it's good good. Is there anything wrong with the food? No no no, it's all well. And he just said, well, then what's going on? And I think Becky was the one who said, well, it's our 25th anniversary, and our children are responding to a question we asked. And that is what have they learned about life through our marriage? And he just looked at us and he said, I have never ever heard of anything like this. And he said, I'm going to give you free desserts.
Jim Daly: Well, there you go. There's the blessing in it all. But Dan, this has been so good. I'm thinking of those listening, the couple, the husband, the wife, whoever it might be. And they're going, oh my gosh, so much of what Dan spoke about today. I've experienced, I'm in it. I don't have that connection. I do feel lonely in my marriage. I don't feel like we're connected the way we should. We're not deep rooted just to use your title. And I want to do that. What can they do differently? What can they start to do to help their marriage have a deep rooted connection?
Dr. Dan Allender: I think one of the hardest things to do is to admit desire, to be able to look at one another and say, I want so much more of my heart for you. I want to be able to give you so much more of what God will one day give you when you stand before him and see his utter delight and awe he has for you. But I also want more of that with you and from you. So, the notion of your marriage is what you desire. And for many of us, we have learned to temper our desire to a point where just getting along, being, you know, I love you. Yeah, I love you. Yeah, just not deep enough. So, do you want more? And if so, what would it mean without accusation or judgment for you both to be able to express we are meant to have more than what we have today. And can we begin to explore what the obstacles might be to being able to bring that more. But can we also celebrate what is simultaneously? And that's the interplay of death and resurrection. Can we grieve what is not? Can we celebrate what is? And when we do that, we are living a Christian marriage rather than merely saying we want one.
Jim Daly: Yeah, that is good and probably a good place to start too is get a copy of Dan's book, read it together, go through it together, and let those things seep into your heart and have discussion about them. I think that's a great way to go. The deep rooted marriage, if you can make a gift of any amount to Focus, we'll send it as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. If you can't afford it, we'll get it out to you and trust others will cover the cost of that because at the core, what we want is to see your marriage thrive in Christ. And that's our commitment.
John Fuller: Yeah, and this is the kind of ministry that Focus on the Family has been doing for nearly 50 years now.
Dr. Dan Allender: Right. And some people may know this, but our 50th anniversary is 2027. This ministry started in 1977, and we're going to celebrate that next July thanks to the generosity of friends like you. We've been able to come alongside so many couples together and families for these past almost 50 years. And we have done the research. We do it every year to measure the impact of the ministry. Last year alone, more than 440,000 couples tell us they've built stronger marriages with the help of Focus on the Family. So, I'm thrilled with that. But behind that number are the real couples facing real struggles. And let me share a note we received from one of those listeners named Liz. She writes, I thought I had healed from the wounds of my childhood, but listening to your program helped me realize there were still things I needed to face. I heard someone put words to feelings I had carried quietly for years, and it gave me the courage to be more honest with myself, my husband, and God about what I was still struggling with. Thank you for helping me recognize that I needed healing when I had been trying so hard to convince myself that I didn't. And that's why support matters. When you give to Focus on the Family, you help put broadcasts like this one on the air and provide biblical hope and practical help to couples who may be struggling quietly and wondering where do I turn?
John Fuller: Yeah, it's so good of God to allow us to be a part of that. And uh this shows the the difference that support makes.
Jim Daly: Yeah, it really does. And we can't do this without you. So, please consider making a gift today and joining us as we help more couples build strong, healthy marriages centered on Christ.
John Fuller: Donate today, get your copy of The Deeply Rooted Marriage, and learn more about our Hope Restored Marriage Intensives when you call 800 the letter A and the word Family. 800 232 6459 or online, focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Thanks for joining us for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Guest (Male): Is your marriage struggling? Communication breaking down? Trust fading? Conflict that never seems to resolve? There's still hope. Hope Restored Marriage Intensives by Focus on the Family help couples step away from daily life and focus fully on rebuilding their relationship. And right now, through the marriage investment initiative, Hope Restored is investing $1,000 toward marriage Intensives. Visit hoperestored.com/invest.