The Narrow Path 07/09/2026

Steve Gregg: Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we're live for an hour each weekday afternoon in order to take your phone calls in real time. If you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith and you'd like to raise those for conversation on the air, we will discuss them with you. It may even be that you not only have a question, or maybe not even a question, perhaps you just think that something that has been given as an answer to a previous question was not very good. If you have a different view and want to balanced comment, feel free to join us and do so. The number is 844-484-5737. That's 844-484-5737. We have a few lines open right now, so this would be a good time for you to call. We're going to talk first of all to Jeff in Springfield, Massachusetts. Jeff, welcome to the Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
Jeff: Thank you, Steve, for taking my call. My question is pertaining, I listened to you on the YouTube speak with people that believe in the "once saved always saved" position. After listening to you, I'm kind of more convinced of the way you look at it. Anyhow, the question I had is, have you known or have you ever known somebody who truly believed, fell away, and then came back to the faith? What does the Bible say on that? Do you have any scripture references? I'll just listen to your answer on the radio.
Steve Gregg: Well, I will say this, that it's sometimes hard to know if someone truly believes or if someone has truly fallen away since truly believing is a deeper thing than just saying a sinner's prayer. Falling away is far more than simply slipping into sin when you're really trying to live a righteous life. I take a true conversion to be one that involves a regeneration, a rebirth, so that a person is a new creation. He's had radical change and has passed from death unto life. This is something that's not just an invisible thing. This changes a person's life considerably and with some consistency, obviously. On the other hand, everyone who's a true Christian sometimes slips and stumbles and does things that they shouldn't do. I consider that if someone who's really born again, it is not this mere slippage or stumbling that determines a loss of salvation. I believe that the best of people sometimes stumble and therefore it is not a mark that somebody has renounced Christ. Apostasy is when a person has at one time embraced Christ as Lord and sought to be a follower and then just has decided, and this may not happen in a moment, this can be something that happens as a result of degrading in their spiritual life over time by neglect or by deception, by failing to connect as one should on a regular basis with Christ and walk in the Spirit, when a person who has been a Christian has decided they don't want to be a Christian anymore. Have I known people like that? Well, I have. Yes, I've known quite a few people like that. Now, have I known any people like that who came back to Christ? I'm going to say I think I have. But again, I'm not the final judge as to whether they were really saved in the first place, whether they really were apostate when they seemed to me to be apostate, or whether they truly came back genuinely when they seemed to. This is something God alone knows. But as far as the scripture is concerned, and that's what you're asking about, the Bible basically indicates that people who fall away are in a much worse condition than they were before they were converted. Why? Well, in my opinion, it's because a person who has not been converted still has everything yet to experience if they come to Christ. Whereas a person who's been a Christian and has already experienced these things is then if they abandon it, there's not really much new to appeal to them with. That's what I think the writer of Hebrews is suggesting in Hebrews 6 verses 4 through 6 where he said it is impossible for those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted of the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, it's impossible if when they have fallen away to renew them to repentance. Now, to say it's impossible to renew them to repentance, some people think, okay, they're doomed, there's no hope of coming back. And yet there's other places in the scripture that suggest that sometimes people might be brought back, which would mean that to say it's impossible has got to be taken in some non-absolute sense. Of course, in the Bible sometimes "impossible" is in a non-absolute sense. For example, when Jesus said it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God, and the disciples said, "Well, who can be saved then?" And Jesus said, "Well, with men this is impossible." It is impossible for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. But he said, "But with God nothing shall be called impossible." So something that is impossible at one level may not be entirely impossible. There are things in the Bible that suggest that a person who falls away from being a Christian might in some circumstances, but with difficulty, be brought back to Christ. It says in the book of James that at the very end of the book of James, it says in James 5 verse 19 and 20, "Brethren, if any among you," that is any brothers, Christians, "wanders from the truth," now that sounds to me like probably it's talking about apostasy, "and somebody turns him back." Turns him back from wandering, brings him back to the truth. "Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." So what it's saying, of course, is that while they were wandering away, their soul was facing the consequence of death. But if you bring them back, you'll save his soul from death and you'll cover a multitude of sins, which means that while he was wandering away, there were sins that were not covered. You might know that I had a debate recently with somebody who saw this differently and he thought that even if you wander away from Christ, your sins are covered. This passage suggests that if they wander away, their sins are not covered unless they come back because if you bring them back, then you'll cover that multitude of sins that was not covered until they came back. As I understand it, this is suggesting that it's not entirely impossible for someone to come back. In 2nd Peter, I mentioned earlier that it's worse for the person who falls away than they were before they were saved. 2nd Peter chapter 2 says in verse 20 and following, "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, if they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than having known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them." Okay, so it says these people have known the Lord to the extent that their knowledge of God has delivered them from the corruptions of the world. This is a salvation situation. It says if they allow the world to overcome them and they go back to where they were before they were Christian, then they're worse off than they were before they were a Christian. Now before they were a Christian, they weren't saved. If they're worse off now, then we should certainly assume they're not saved now if they're worse than before they were converted. But in what way are they worse? Well, I don't think it means their punishment is worse, although it might be, but I think it's saying they're in a worse condition because before they were saved, let's just say a person who's never been a Christian is quite winnable. A person who's been a Christian and decided they don't want to be one anymore is much less winnable because they've sinned against the light. They've known the truth and decided they don't want the truth. When that happens, your heart doesn't stay the same. It hardens. So, I'm going to say the Bible warns us that if someone falls away, it's much more difficult. In fact, one passage says it's impossible to win them back to repentance. Though as I said, if you take the whole of what scripture says, this "impossible" probably is to be taken in a non-absolute sense but basically saying this is beyond the reach of most people going to not be able to bring this person back. But of course, God can do anything. As far as my own experience and knowing people, yes, I have known people who fell away and have come back. Not many, but I have known some. Therefore I believe, I mean, I don't interpret scripture based on my experience, I would interpret my experience based on scripture, but it does sound like scripture would agree in saying this is a possibility. I appreciate your call, brother.
Gary: Hi Steve, thanks for taking my call and it's always a pleasure to speak with you. Steve, the question I have today regarding evangelism. I think it's in the book of Ephesians, might be chapter 2, it says some are called to be pastors, evangelists, and so on and so forth.
Steve Gregg: Chapter 4.
Gary: Okay. So the question that I have, as born again believers, as Christians, are we all supposed to spread the gospel, tell people to lead people to Christ? What makes that some people say, "No, I wasn't called to do that"? Can you explain that a little bit compared to someone who like myself, I hand out gospel tracts and that's what I believe the Lord has called me to do because I don't feel uncomfortable doing that. Can you explain that? Thank you.
Steve Gregg: Well, I don't think that everyone is called to be an evangelist, but one might be called to do the work of an evangelist some of the time. That's what Paul told Timothy. Paul told Timothy, "Do the work of an evangelist." Now it's obvious Timothy was something more than an evangelist. Paul said in Ephesians 4:11, God gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers. While some people think Timothy was a pastor, I don't. The Bible would indicate he was an apostle. He was part of Paul's apostolic team. Therefore, he would be in the realm of the apostles. Now, do apostles do the works of evangelists? Yes, among other things. Apostles might prophesy or teach or pastor or evangelize. They seem to do a lot of different things like that. Other people are just called to be evangelists and they don't do much else. I mean, that's what their ministry is. These people are usually the ones, maybe like yourself, who feel inwardly impelled to go out and to share the gospel with people as much as possible, whether it's handing out tracts or striking up conversations or simply becoming a crusade evangelist like Billy Graham or Greg Laurie. This is evangelism. I would say, you said "are all Christians supposed to be evangelists?" I think that all Christians should be prepared to do the work of an evangelist if that opportunity arises. The thing is, a pastor, for example, is supposed to feed the sheep. Now the sheep are already converted, they're not unbelievers. If a pastor does well feeding the sheep, he may not have much time to go out on the street and do evangelism too. Now some people think he should preach the gospel from the pulpit. Well, maybe he should if God leads him to do that. The Bible doesn't say that he should. The assumption in the Bible is in the church meeting the people are already converted. It's a fellowship of the saints and it's not an assembly of unbelievers. So evangelizing them might not be the proper use of time. When a pastor has an opportunity to feed the sheep, if he's instead trying to evangelize the one or two people who might have wandered in unbeknownst to him or anyone else who's not a Christian, I would say that a pastor does better if he does his calling, which is to feed the sheep. Others are there to create new sheep by evangelism. To put it another way, evangelists are called to go gather the fishes, be fishers of men and bring in the fishes. Whereas pastors and teachers are there to clean the fish once they've been brought in while the evangelist goes out and gets some more. There's different things. Then other people cook the fish or breed fish or do something else. The point is that to say that everybody is called to be evangelist is simply not something that can be well supported in scripture. But to say, as Peter does in 1st Peter chapter 3 and verse 15, that everyone should be prepared to give an answer to anyone who asks them the reason for the hope that's in them with meekness and fear, any Christian should be ready to present the gospel to anyone who shows any curiosity or anyone that they may have a wonderful opportunity to share with. It's one thing to say "I'm ready to share the gospel and eager to share the gospel with anyone I have a chance to talk to about it if they bring it up or if something happens that seems like a great opportunity to insert it into the conversation with somebody." I'm there. On the other hand, for me to say "Okay, this is Thursday afternoon, I'm going to go out and spend two hours passing out tracts," well not everyone is called to do that. Some people are called to do things that would actually preclude that because of the time involved in what they're doing. That's what Paul says when he says he gave some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers. So, I don't believe everyone's called to be an evangelist. I would be very surprised if any Christian who knew Christ would not be eager to share Christ with others when they have the chance. But it may be that because of their calling in God they're doing a far many other things that are actually closer to what God's calling them to do that would preclude them spending much time doing that. So as long as every part of the body is doing what the body parts are supposed to do, the whole work of the body will be done. All are not a mouth and all are not an ear and all are not an eye, Paul said. Certainly not all are evangelists. But to my mind, see, I don't count myself an evangelist. Though as a youth that was my dream. I was an admirer of Billy Graham from my childhood and throughout my entire youth and I still admire him. When I first was in junior high thinking, well I feel like I want to go in the ministry, I thought of Billy Graham's ministry. I thought I'd love to be a crusade evangelist. I love to see people get saved. When the Jesus movement came, a whole bunch of people were getting saved and I was in an evangelistic band and I got to preach the gospel to the people we played for and stuff and people got saved. That kind of confirmed to me that good, I get to be an evangelist. But as time went on, it just became clear that people were asking me to teach them more and I realized at that particular time there were fewer people teaching than there were evangelizing. In the Jesus movement almost everyone was out evangelizing. So I actually started getting involved in teaching because that was more needed and it also seemed to be more where my equipage was leading me. So God seems to have given me that gift more than the gift of evangelism. I do both. I mean, any evangelism I do now is almost always in the context of teaching, but I'm not going on the radio to evangelize. Lots of people, a lot of radio programs are. I'm here to teach. If people get evangelized in the meantime, that's excellent. I'll be glad for that. That's a bonus. Well, but thank you for your service on the street, brother. I'm glad you're doing that and others too. God bless you. Okay, Alex in Wooddenville, Wisconsin, welcome to the Narrow Path. Hello. I'm afraid I can't. I don't want to listen to the radio. I don't want to listen to your radio, I want to listen to your voice. Where are you at, Alex? Okay, I'm moving along. We should, maybe we don't say this enough. If you call the program, you'll be put on hold. And while you're on hold, listen to your phone, not your radio. Why? Because the radio has a delay, sometimes as much as a half a minute delay, which means when I'm on the phone with you, I put your call on and say "Okay, Alex, where are you? Where are you?" If you're listening to your radio somewhere else and not at your phone, you're not going to hear me calling your name until everyone else has been hearing me call your name for a half minute and that just doesn't make good radio time. So please bear that in mind. All right, let's talk to Linda in Grass Valley, California. Hi Linda.
Linda: Hi Steve. I'm not well prepared for my question, but hopefully you'll just be able to deal with it anyway. Something that came to me very recently, this information from Zechariah 12:4. Anyway, you probably are aware, it's about the horses and God strikes the horses and the men into blindness during a war or a battle. Does that ring a bell?
Steve Gregg: Yes. Well, actually God sometimes strikes people with blindness and terror and they're worth more than horses because people are made in the image of God and God loves people. I'm not saying he doesn't love animals, but he doesn't make his love for animals a main theme of his self-disclosure to us. It's true that the Bible says God cares enough for the sparrows that not one dies apart from his will, but then he says, "But you're worth more than a lot of sparrows," which is of course true. Humans are worth more than animals. Now, I'm an animal lover myself and probably you are too. I would not argue that God doesn't love animals in some measure. After all, he created them, he made them beautiful, he made them wonderful, I'm sure he, when he made them, he said "it's good," he liked them. But he also made them mortal, which is also how he made us. We're mortals also. Nothing that is created is immortal, which means everything's going to die. Every animal will die, every human will die, except for those few that last generation perhaps that's still living when Jesus returns and is caught up in the air alive. But let's face it, of the billions of people who have lived on the earth, the vast majority have died and the vast majority living today will die unless Jesus comes soon. In fact, all of us will die unless Jesus comes soon. So to say, "Why would God afflict the horses with blindness?" Well, God is interested in longer-range results. We're interested in short-range results. In other words, let's suppose I get really sick and I'm really miserable and I'm praying for God to heal me and he doesn't. Well, I might think, "Isn't God a loving God? Why does he let me suffer like this? I know he could heal me." Well, that's because I'm interested in short-range things. Paul said that he had an afflicting infirmity. He called it the thorn in his flesh, which was apparently of great annoyance to him and he prayed three times that the Lord would take it away. And the Lord said, "No. My grace is sufficient for you. I'm going to just give you the grace for this. I'm not going to take it away." And so he said, "Oh, okay, then I'll live with it." Because there are things that God wants to accomplish in the world and in our lives that actually cannot be accomplished without a certain amount of suffering and pain and sacrifice. Now the death of animals or the animals being struck blind would be one of the lesser costs, I would say, to bring about the end of a battle which saves a whole civilization. If the way that a civilization is saved in a war is that the horses go blind or they're terrorized and they're unmanageable, well, I like horses too, I'm sure you do too, but that's a small price to pay for saving a civilization. After all, what's more terrible is that God allows people by the thousands to die in wars in the process of saving a civilization. So what I think we have to understand is that God's interested in the long-term results and he knows what things are priorities and we often don't have that sense of the long range. We just know, "Hey, this doesn't, that's not nice. That poor horse didn't deserve to go blind." Well, that's true. But that poor deer that's taken down by a pack of wolves or that moose, it didn't deserve that either. That's just the way life is. Animals and people die. Some creatures seem to be made only to serve the interest of man or predators. I mean, there's certain species that don't seem to have any purpose in life except to reproduce and feed predators. What else are they there for? And horses seem to have very little they're needed for but to serve man. So, if it's in the service of good people that his people are invaded by bad people riding horses and God strikes the horses blind, well then that's how he saves the good people from the bad people. Now by the way, Zechariah also talks about God striking bad people blind. So it's not just the horses. In chapter 14 verse 12 it says, "This shall be the plague which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem. Their flesh will dissolve while they stand on their feet. Their eyes will dissolve in their sockets." I dare say that probably leave them blind. "And their tongue shall dissolve in their mouth." Now if God would do that too bad people because they deserve it and because the outcome is the salvation of his own people, then I don't see any inconsistency in him allowing horses to suffer the same fate. Now by the way, again, this is not that God hates horses or angry at horses. Horses in biblical times were military vehicles. The average person didn't ride horses. A person who was wealthy might ride a donkey or maybe a camel in biblical times. Horses were pretty much reserved for soldiers to ride. Cavalry. And so whenever the Bible talks about horses or chariots, it's talking about military equipment. And so in other words, it's like when the chariots of Pharaoh were pursuing Israel through the Red Sea, it says that God caused the wheels to fall off their chariots. In other words, their military vehicles started falling apart. Now horses are military vehicles too. And by the way, Egypt's horses that were pulling those chariots sadly had to be sacrificed along with the chariots and the men in them. That's how war is. The great thing is, I mean, if anything great can be found in this, is that an animal that dies or suffers briefly, it is very brief, and there's no suffering for them after the death. It is however not guaranteed that people who die will not suffer after death. The main thing I think we should be concerned about is that we and others that we have influence on are prepared to die since that's going to be what happens essentially to everybody eventually, and all our animals too. I need to take a break. We have another half hour coming. Thank you for joining us. You're listening to the Narrow Path. We have another half hour, so don't go away. The Narrow Path is a listener-supported ministry. You can write to us at thenarrowpath.com, or you can write to us at our mailing address, which is PO Box 1730, Temecula, California 92593. You can donate or you can just take the stuff from our website at thenarrowpath.com for free. I'll be back in 30 seconds. Don't go away. We have another half hour.
Steve Gregg: Welcome back to the Narrow Path Radio Broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we're live for another half hour taking your calls. Looks like our lines just filled up, which means that no other calls can get through at the moment. But as lines open up, you could possibly get through before the show is over. The number is 844-484-5737. Our next caller today is Jeff from Little Rock, Arkansas. Hi Jeff, welcome to the Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.
Jeff: Hey Steve, good to talk to you again. My question is in Job 14. I wonder why he has such depressing, negative language about God. I thought maybe the guys visiting was grinding him down or his wife's not supporting him, but I don't think that's it. He told the guys "Y'all are wrong. I haven't done wrong," but I just wanted you to elaborate on Job 14.
Steve Gregg: Yeah, of course. Job 14 is like a lot of other parts of Job. What verses are you looking at there?
Jeff: Kind of the whole chapter. It seems like most of the whole chapter he's talking at, almost sounds like God's after him.
Steve Gregg: Well, yeah, that's how he feels. He definitely feels like God is after him. I mean, how would you expect probably someone to feel if in one day their entire holdings, their entire estate, just vanished. And then the same day all 10 of your children died in an accident. And all that was left was your wife and she wasn't very sympathetic. Okay, so that'd be a rather depressing thing. And then by the time chapter 14 was written, there was another wave of problems came on them. In addition to still grieving over his children dying and losing everything materially he had, and he was the wealthiest man of his region, the Bible says before that, so he went from the wealthiest to the most destitute overnight. Then he's got affliction on his body. Sores that are tormenting him. Now, I would imagine there's people who've suffered much less than Job has who've had their moments of saying, "What's God got against me? Why me? What did I do wrong? God seems to be pursuing me to destroy me." Well, I mean, that's just an honest assessment. Actually, some of the Psalms have that kind of a mood to them too. The psalmists are saying, "How come all the wicked people seem to be prospering and doing fine? I'm your loyal servant and all this bad stuff's happening to me." I think that's just realism. I realize that a mature Christian who schooled in the word of God and really believes the word of God wouldn't necessarily act that way, although they might in some cases. I mean, it would be a strong temptation to do so. But he didn't curse God, the thing is. That's the thing the devil was trying to persuade him to curse God, but he retained his loyalty to God. But he was just saying, "I wish I could present my case to him in person and find out what's going on here, what's up with that?" And like I said, I don't know very many Christians who haven't had that response to certain things they've gone through. "God, how come? What do you got in mind here? How is this called for?" Now, of course, when you're a mature Christian, and we can't say Job was a mature Christian, he was a godly man, but he didn't have a Bible, for example. He had no Bible. There's not one book of the Bible that was written when he was going through this. So he had nothing. He had none of the promises of God. He didn't have Job chapters 1 and 2 that he could read, which we now have, which tells us what was going on more. And I mean, to him, he was just a typical godly guy, a better than average godly guy, who was minding his own business, being as faithful to God as he knew how to do, and suddenly, boom, disaster hit him like a freight train.
Jeff: I guess I never really thought it out that not having scriptures or somebody else to teach you or Satan not asking permission to let him have his way with me or you or somebody. Yeah, I should have thought of where he came from.
Steve Gregg: Right, absolutely. I mean, we're not even sure if he knew the devil exists. We know that this happened because the devil and God were kind of on two sides of a bet about him. The devil was saying, "Let me do these things to hurt him and he'll curse you God." And God by implication was saying, "I don't think so. Just give it a try." And so Job was again given the opportunity to glorify God in this test. Now, I know some people who don't love God much, I mean they might think they do but they certainly don't if they say this, they'd say, "Well, God isn't very good to allow one of his faithful friends to become like a pawn in a game." This wasn't a game. The stakes were high. A man's soul was at stake. And we all go through tests. Maybe not as many as he did in one day, but we all go through tests. And we're not just pawns in a game. We are responsible agents who are being tested. Our loyalty to God is being tested. But more than this, Job's reactions in this situation were as it turned out to the glory of God. God was glorified in Job's continuing to trust him. Job said, "If he kills me, I'll still trust him." Now that's how a Christian should think. I honestly think that some Christians are less faithful than Job was. But you know, anyway, I've known people who say "I believed in God until he took my child" or "until my marriage broke up." Well, how about if he kills you? Will you still trust him then? Job said he would. Right, absolutely. I mean, there are definitely cases. I mean, that's what the devil complained about in chapter 1. The devil said, "Well, you haven't allowed me to touch him. You've put a hedge around him and everything he has. I can't do anything to him. That's not fair." And apparently that's how it is. If you and I are in peace right now and relative comfort and prosperity, I'd have to say that's not because the devil doesn't want to hurt us, it's because God is not allowing him to at this moment. And then, of course, if those circumstances change for the worse from our point of view, that's not because God can't stop the devil, it's because God decided to stop stopping the devil at that moment and almost certainly for the same reason that he did so with Job, so that we could glorify God in our trials as Job did.
Jeff: Well I was thinking more of God knows us better than we know ourselves or more knows us more than we think he does or something because...
Steve Gregg: Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. I think I just hung up on you. I didn't mean to do that. That was a mistake on my part. Yeah, I mean, I think God knows what we can and cannot stand. I believe that, I mean, it says that in 1st Corinthians chapter 10. It says God will not permit you to be tested above that which you're able to endure, but he'll always with the testing he'll allow a means of escape that you can endure it. So, we can be sure that God knows how much we can or cannot endure. And I'm sure that the devil would like to give us far more than we could endure and God doesn't permit that. On the other hand, when God does allow us to suffer great things to be tested, it's quite a flattery that he thinks we can handle that. It's like he thinks that with him, with his assistance, we can handle things that we ourselves think we couldn't handle. And in a sense, he's placed more confidence in us than we put in ourselves in that case. But of course, when we say that God won't give us more than we can handle, we need to put a finer point on that. He won't give us more than we can handle with his help. He may well give us more than we can handle alone, but that's because he has no intentions of our handling it alone. He wants us to trust him and receive his aid. That'd be my analysis of that. I appreciate your call.
Kyle: Hey Steve, I really appreciate you and everything you've done with the stuff with dispensationalism. I've listened to a lot of your content. I'm a little confused as to why you don't talk about the downstream impacts of this doctrine, like on people individually and also, globally or politically. You don't seem to cover that part of it.
Steve Gregg: Well, I find that people who are against dispensationalism or maybe against some other doctrine, often their way of refuting it is by pointing out some bad consequences that may happen from someone believing it. The thing is, those bad consequences do not always happen. Some people say, "Well, if you believe in eternal security, you're going to be playing fast and loose with your morality because you just figure you can get away with anything and go to heaven." Well, that might be true of some people, but there's lots of people who've believed in eternal security who lived holy lives. In other words, if I'm going to argue against, let's say, you mentioned dispensationalism, I'll bring that in, but if I'm going to argue against eternal security by saying, "Well, if people believe that, they're going to go run crazy and they're going to live sinful lives." Well, some people might, but that's not something I could predict in any given case because it's not an absolute cause-and-effect situation. What I'd rather do is show that that doctrine is not scriptural. Then we won't have to worry about what people would believe if they believed it. Now, I've known people who were dispensationalists who said that if the pre-trib rapture isn't true, that they don't even want to be Christians. Well, it is very strange and I'd say that not all dispensationalists are that way. Because when I was a dispensationalist, I believed in a pre-trib rapture, but I was willing to go to jail and to die for Jesus. In fact, I was actually thinking that'd be the greatest of honors. And there are people who think that way like I did, I'm sure there's many Christians who do. So, we could say a someone who's taught the pre-trib rapture, they'll be unprepared for suffering and then when they do suffer, they'll fall away. Well, probably if that's true of them, they might have fallen away whether they believed in a pre-trib rapture or not. So, I can't really, I'd rather show that the pre-trib rapture is not what the Bible teaches rather than say, "Well, believing in that will have these negative consequences in people's lives." Maybe in some, but I'm not talking about the individual, I'm talking about the other people that get the negative impacts. 40% of Syria's Christian right now, they're just regular Christians in Syria and they're getting blown up because of the... Are dispensationalists? No, they're just regular Christians in Syria. Okay, you're talking about the geopolitical situation. Yeah, well, and that's a very different thing than him being a dispensationalist. Because there are dispensationalists who would never sponsor bombing anybody. In fact, I would think that many Anabaptists who don't believe in war at all, don't believe in fighting at all, don't believe in killing at all, would also be dispensationalists. So, I don't really see how dispensationalism causes that. What I think is what causes people to do unjust things or to favor unjust things is not their eschatology, though their eschatology may give them an excuse for that, though it's in their heart to do those bad things anyway. I mean, anyone who would like to see a whole population bombed or exterminated is does not have the spirit of Christ in my opinion. And that's their problem. Their problem is not that they believe Israel is God's chosen people, that might be a problem in their theology. It's not the problem that's causing them to... "But you can't have the spirit of Christ without Christ's words. You can't have the spirit of Christ without his example. Dispensationalism took the words out and you can have whatever Jesus you want. Now people overseas are dying because of it and they've aligned themselves with Israel." Well, I think you don't get out often enough to know there are lots of dispensationalists who don't reason that way. There's lots of dispensationalists that take the words of Jesus very seriously, even though their theology tells them they don't have to. I mean, Scofield Reference Bible dispensationalism teaches that the teachings of Jesus are not for this dispensation, but they're for the millennium. Now, if somebody's a follower of Scofield and believes that, then they might in fact neglect the teachings of Jesus. However, for many years in my early life, I used the Scofield Bible, I read it, I sat under dispensational teaching, and I believed that keeping every word in the sermon on the mount was absolutely mandatory because I believed in discipleship and Jesus said "if you continue in my words, you're my disciples." So, in other words, dispensationalism certainly has the seeds of compromise in its, that could germinate. But I think those seeds of compromise are only germinate in a certain kind of heart. I believe that the right kind of heart would not behave that way even if they believed that the dispensational teaching was scriptural. Now, I'm as much against dispensationalism as you are, at least I'm but for different reasons. I am because it's not true. I think people ought to believe what is true. If people believe something that's not true, they might behave or they might not behave. But their problem is what they believe isn't true. Once a person knows the truth, the truth will make them free. Free from the misbehaviors and sins that they would commit whether they had those doctrines or not. I believe that evil is in the heart of man. And I think it can be, in a sense, excused in some cases by wrong doctrine. And dispensationalism might be a doctrine that excuses that for some people, but it's not that which necessarily causes it in my opinion. If you think otherwise then we're going to have to disagree on that. But I, yeah, my biggest my approach to any theology is not to take the ad hominem approach that you believe that so you're going to be a bad person. No, I believe a person can have doctrines that are very poor and still be very good Christian people. And I believe people can have doctrines that are very good and be very bad Christian people because I believe it's what's in your heart more than what's in your head. Now obviously there is a relationship. If the bad stuff is in your head, it will no doubt give way to those evil inclinations that are in the heart. But it's the stuff in the heart that's the problem and Jesus said that. Jesus said it's in out of the mouth is what defiles people because that comes from the heart. He said for out of the heart comes all these wicked things that defile a person. Anyway, I will say this, some of the great Christians of the past have also been dispensationalists. And some great Christians right now are dispensationalists. But also dispensationalism can be a fetish for some, end times can be a fetish, it can be a fascination for people who don't even have the spirit of Christ at all. I mean, we're not going to I can't broad brush the theology and say everyone who holds the wrong theology here is going to be a bad person. I will say there are bad people who hold that theology and bad people who probably don't, but I'm concerned about showing that the theology isn't true. If somebody can see that the theology isn't true, then they won't believe it. And any harm that would have been caused by them believing it will have been averted that way. That's my approach. Appreciate your call. Let's talk to David from Tampa, Florida. Welcome.
David: Hey Steve, thank you for taking my call. I enjoy your show very much. But I do have a question. How do we reconcile what you were talking about in Ephesians like the ones that have been enlightened and...
Steve Gregg: Hebrews, yeah.
David: Hebrews, I'm sorry. And how do we reconcile that one with John 10:28, which says that no one can pluck us the saved from God's hand.
Steve Gregg: Okay, I'll answer that. I'll be glad to answer that. In that passage, Jesus is talking about his sheep. He's the good shepherd. He said and he takes care of sheep and they're very secure. In verse 27, the verse before the one you quoted, he says, "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me." So, one of his sheep is going to be somebody who hears or hearkens to him and follows him. Now, he says about those people, "No one can pluck them out of my hand or out of my father's hand." True. Absolutely true. If you're listening to Jesus, if you're following Jesus, no one can pluck you out of his hand and I've never suggested for a moment that anyone could. If you're hanging in with the shepherd, there's no wolf or thief or bear or lion that can take those sheep from him. He's stronger than they are. He's fine. Now, if a sheep wanders off on its own and doesn't stay with the shepherd, well then it faces dangers that wouldn't be in its path if it was with the shepherd. Now the sheep are the ones who follow him. Are you following Jesus? If so, then you're a sheep. Did you used to follow Jesus but you don't now? Well, then you're not a sheep because the sheep are the ones who follow him, he said. So for example, I believe I'm following Jesus now, so I'm secure. Do I believe that I would be secure 10 years from now if I stop following Jesus? Of course not. There's no security for people who aren't following Jesus, but they're not his sheep. His sheep are the ones who hear his voice and follow him. So I believe in the security of the believer. Nobody can take me from God. On the other hand, I'm still a human being. I still have free choice. I still could make a decision. I'd have to be much stupider than I think I am now, but I'd have to be very stupid, but I could make a decision to just say, "I don't want to be following Jesus anymore. I'm going to go my own way." Well, nobody plucked me then. I just I just ran off. When a sheep is not following the shepherd, then the promises that are made to the people who are following the shepherd don't apply to them. That's how I understand it.
David: Yeah. But like we were talking earlier about the book of Job, he was a believer, he was a just man and still bad things happened to him and still that can happen, right. But what I'm saying is that look at David's example and David's example, he didn't always walk with the Lord and even Solomon, you know, but I think, I think, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think that we tend to assume that that's what Hebrews is saying, that we can actually lose our salvation. So, in that sense...
Steve Gregg: Well let me ask you a question. I'm looking at the clock, I'm looking at the clock and how many people are waiting, so don't I'm going to have to decide how quick this is. I'm going to give you a case and you tell me what you think. I know a man who led his brother to the Lord one night. The man tearfully repented and came to Christ and was rejoicing in his salvation before he went to bed that night. Next day, one of his friends said, "I heard you accepted Jesus last night." He said, "No. Me? No. No way." That is, he denied Jesus the next day. Now would it be your opinion that he was still saved when he was denying Jesus because he said some kind of a prayer the night before?
David: Well, I think that's for Jesus to decide, you know, to weight his heart. Because what if he, you know, if he just accepted Jesus the night before, he still doesn't understand the full, the full gospel or the full benefits or everything about it. I think you would agree because even Paul says that some still are drinking milk because they're not mature enough.
Steve Gregg: Okay, I agree, but let me just ask you this. If you were to counsel him after he betrayed Christ, would you be inclined to say, "Well, no worries, you're still saved because you accepted Jesus," or would you say, "Well, I don't think you are"?
David: Peter did it. Peter did it.
Steve Gregg: Well Peter did it and he repented. Right. He repented, exactly. But we're talking about the very next day. So we don't know if he repented after that. We don't know the story of that. No, he repented within the same 12-hour period. He didn't go to sleep in between times. He sinned three times, denied the Lord three times, and repented when the cock crowed in the morning. I'm talking about the man of the example you gave me. And I don't mean to be contradictive. All I want is for us to be very fair that only Jesus, only God can really decide if that person is lost if he ever was saved or not. I agree. I agree. I'm going to let you have that. God knows who is and who isn't. We're not talking about whether God knows who is or who isn't, we're talking about whether the Bible teaches that it's possible to apostatize and therefore be, as Paul puts it, "alienated from Christ" or "fallen from grace." Those are the terms Paul uses for the Galatians. They've fallen from grace. They're estranged from Christ. Now, if somebody says, "Well, they can be fallen from grace and estranged from Christ and still be saved." Well, I'm going to have to disagree with that. Or they might say, "Well, if they were estranged from Christ and fall from grace, they never were in Christ or never had grace." I'm going to have to disagree with that too. How can you fall from a position you never held? How can you be estranged from somebody that you were never with? No, he's talking about Christians who have become estranged from Christ. So, I mean, if it's your view that a person who's estranged from Christ and fallen from grace is still saved, I hope you never tell them that because you'll give them a false assurance. And yet some people do. Alex in Woodenville, Wisconsin, welcome.
Alex: Hey wonderful program. Very quickly, I saw your debate with the "once save always saved." I thought it was interesting. And then earlier in the program you mentioned that was it impossible to come back to Christ or was it possible? I didn't get that right.
Steve Gregg: Okay, what Hebrews 6 verses 4 through 6 says is it's impossible to renew them. Now it doesn't say it's impossible for them to be renewed, but it's impossible for somebody to renew them. I think he may be referring to the readers. He's just told them that they are babes, they're not grown up, they should be able to teach others but they can't. They're unskilled in the law of Christ and the Word of Christ. And I think he's saying, "It's impossible for you to renew these people back because you haven't gone much further than them." I could be wrong, there's lots of ways that's been interpreted. But I'm out of time. Thanks for calling. Our website is thenarrowpath.com. Thanks for joining us.